Reviewing The Great Darkness Saga and Andy’s Love of the Legion of Superheroes

In this episode Andy loves talking about the Legion of old tales and Mike tries to stay interested. Andy rattles on about Legion stuff, tries to make excuses for the story and just proves that this is an amazing story and every DC fan should read it. Plus Mike finds out Andy has been watching the Boys.

Transcript

Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker 1

I started watching the boys TV show.

00:00:03 Speaker 2

Yo, boy, here we go. We've lost.

00:00:06 Speaker 1

We've read the books that didn't that didn't steer.

00:00:09 Speaker 2

You away, huh?

00:00:11 Speaker 1

No, you know I I'm trying to pace myself. Me and my wife started watching it together. She it's we're in bed and she thought it was pretty corny and hokey. So I was given permission to watch it without her. So, you know, usually when I'm eating breakfast.

00:00:18 Speaker 2

Kids are in bed, right?

00:00:20 Speaker 2

OK.

00:00:31 Speaker 1

After I just dropped the kids off before I start the housework or any other work I have.

00:00:36 Speaker 1

Do I would catch an episode. The boys I'm through, season one finished that today and I have to say I'm enjoying it a ton better than I did the book.

00:00:52 Speaker 1

It's, you know, they have to have some limits so they can't get so pornographic. I mean, it's still there and it's very bloody detailed graphically, but I do enjoy it. It's it's kind.

00:01:04 Speaker 1

Have fun. It's not the best show ever. It's not even close. But I as it got along, can begin to actually like some of the characters, and it became a little less corny. Now they haven't done any of the Super risky stuff like some of the stuff we've read. I hear season 2.

00:01:25 Speaker 1

Three are a little more like that, so I might not enjoy.

00:01:28 Speaker 1

That as much.

00:01:29 Speaker 1

Hmm M.

00:01:31 Speaker 1

For now, you know I gave it a try and it was OK. I mean, nothing you can watch with your kids who are younger, 35, but more surprising than I thought. And it doesn't necessarily follow the books. At least what I've read of it as as much. I mean, it did a little bit.

00:01:33

Sorry, learn hanging up.

00:01:39

Right.

00:01:51 Speaker 2

It seemed that apparently because Simon Pegg was clearly the inspiration of the character for the the sidekick type guy. Yeah, but.

00:02:01 Speaker 2

Have passed and he can't play that young kid, but apparently he does make a cameo or make some appearances.

00:02:09 Speaker 1

Yeah, he's he's huge. He's dead.

00:02:10 Speaker 2

Down the road.

00:02:12 Speaker 2

Huey. That's yeah, Huey.

00:02:14 Speaker 1

Yeah. So he's the dad of the his own character.

00:02:19 Speaker 1

Which is funny and he shows up a few times. I mean, he doesn't have a big part or anything, but you know, he shows up a few times to try and give advice to Huey and the actor who plays Huey's. I mean, doesn't look anything.

00:02:30 Speaker 1

Like him, it's not supposed to be Simon Pegg's son, or, you know, whatever he does a good job. The the actor who does Homelander it's really creepy. And they do a good job with that, too.

00:02:42 Speaker 2

Karl Urban, you glorious thank you crazes.

00:02:43 Speaker 1

Yeah. Colonel urban. Who's? Who's? You know who's good at everything? He's an amazing actor. Who he could just stand there and I could just watch him and I'd be enjoying, you know, my time. You know, he's got Dirk Square jaw looks and and some.

00:03:03 Speaker 1

Why an acting job?

00:03:05 Speaker 1

You're listening to and This is why.

00:03:06 Speaker 1

I love comic.

00:03:31 Speaker 1

We must complain about everything, good or bad.

00:03:36 Speaker 1

And welcome to another episode of in the swirl of comics, I'm Andy.

00:03:39 Speaker 2

And the mic.

00:03:41 Speaker 1

And we are back again. If this is your first time listening welcome. We are the podcast for old friends, talking comic books and curmudgeon in this. And we.

00:03:55 Speaker 1

Like to complain and get off our lawn stuff and we just chat away. Somebody had posted on our Facebook page that the last episode they were couldn't wait to listen to our podcast about Jack Kirby cause of all he would learn from it. And I had to mention that we're really not a learning podcast.

00:04:15 Speaker 1

We don't teach you anything. There's plenty of those. We just give our opinion and it's usually try to be funny and then, you know, maybe.

00:04:24 Speaker 1

Accurate, but really it's just a conversation. Thanks for for.

00:04:29 Speaker 1

Nin and all the downloads. Special thanks to the old guys who like Old Comics forum on Facebook. Guys have really been pretty cool, welcomed us with open arms and we appreciate that if you have listened and you enjoy us, please tell a friend because we like every other podcast would like.

00:04:49 Speaker 1

To have more listeners.

00:04:53 Speaker 2

Well, and also more engagement and not just listen to me always, always in feedback.

00:04:55 Speaker 1

Great. More engagement would be great.

00:04:59 Speaker 1

I do have feedback from the Kirby episode. If we get to that later. So.

00:05:04 Speaker 2

Ohh. Nice. We'll see.

00:05:07 Speaker 2

Have to suffer the consequences of somebody responding to our opinions with their opinion. How dare they?

00:05:10 Speaker 1

Right.

00:05:13 Speaker 1

Yes. How dare they? We have 50I.

00:05:18

Think this is.

00:05:18 Speaker 1

Episode 53 might post on the Facebook page like kind of a summary of what each episode was.

00:05:26 Speaker 1

Get your interest and maybe download some old episode, certainly season three, which is this is, this is our best one so far. Our sound quality knock on wood has been pretty good. Nothing like our first season. So you're just starting on the third season well.

00:05:42 Speaker 1

I don't blame you, but you know we did some good conversations in season one and season 2 and we are going to continue on as long as we can on this. So thanks for joining us. Mike, you're going to say what this book we're reading.

00:05:57 Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, this is a book without giving the title. I remember even in the early years of our acquaintanceship that where it was definitely this was when you had kept talking about. And this is one was like, oh, man that.

00:06:12 Speaker 2

Great story, possibly the best story. Oh, man, this was so great and I had no earthly idea about this thing and what it was. You know, what was a big hullabaloo or anything about it that now goes back a few decades?

00:06:29 Speaker 1

Yes, this is from 1982 and 83. That's where this series great Darkness saga leasing the superheroes, everybody who's listening to the podcast before, knows I am a huge legion of superheroes fan have been since 1980. Paul Leavitt, Keith Giffin, Larry.

00:06:29

And I still.

00:06:48 Speaker 1

Did did this series I had originally asked Mike to read. Let's see what was it? 284 Legion 284 to 296 and the annual he did reply earlier today that he only read like six or seven of those issues.

00:07:06 Speaker 1

Which out for?

00:07:09 Speaker 1

In certain circumstances.

00:07:11 Speaker 1

I'll forgive him on that, but he's.

00:07:12 Speaker 1

Missing out on some of the back.

00:07:14 Speaker 1

Down and I don't want to get into.

00:07:16 Speaker 1

It. Yeah, legion.

00:07:17 Speaker 1

Of superheroes. Great darkness. If you haven't read it well, we're about to talk about it, so spoilers ahead.

00:07:22 Speaker 2

For a story that is now officially.

00:07:25 Speaker 2

40 years, 40 years old.

00:07:27 Speaker 1

Oh, man. Wow. Critically acclaimed it is. It is the classic storyline. So it's the storyline. Every legion guy will recommend you to read and I am no different than those and I'm dying to know what Mike thought of it. This is probably my.

00:07:46 Speaker 1

It's at least my 10th time reading this really.

00:07:51 Speaker 1

At least and I get something new every time I read it.

00:07:54 Speaker 2

And you have these all in individual copies, right?

00:07:57 Speaker 1

I do, but I also have the hardcover tray. It came out. The deluxe edition came out in 2010 so and I have that edition just because I probably read those individual issues so much that they're probably not as.

00:08:11 Speaker 1

Mint, as I wanted them to.

00:08:13 Speaker 1

Be so I thought I'd just get another copy, save the original comics some wear and tear.

00:08:18 Speaker 2

Yeah. In my defense, the only issue I did not read was the last one, 296, which was kind of like quote UN quote aftermath or 295, sorry 295.

00:08:27 Speaker 2

Well, did I read this one? Sorry, I'm going through it. I didn't actually read that.

00:08:31 Speaker 2

One it was.

00:08:32 Speaker 2

Like a recap of it, like the origin of universal.

00:08:37 Speaker 1

Yeah, the green lanterns? Why the Green Lanterns were outlawed on Earth?

00:08:41 Speaker 2

Yeah. So yeah, it was 296. That was the one that I was like, I don't know what this has to do with the rest of the darkness stuff, so I didn't read that.

00:08:50 Speaker 1

It had so much to do with it though, Mike. So much.

00:08:54 Speaker 2

I missed out. I'll have to bust it out then, because that was the one I.

00:08:58 Speaker 2

Was like you.

00:08:59 Speaker 2

Know from a few pages I did read it felt.

00:09:01 Speaker 2

Like Dannemora other Daniel, Lois.

00:09:06 Speaker 2

We've really wrapped this all up.

00:09:08 Speaker 1

And it did. I mean it, it didn't have direct ties, but it was. You know, what happened to these guys after this huge event happened, you know, life goes on and terrible things continue to happen. Of course, the Legion of Superheroes is a team of heroes in the 30th century. All have.

00:09:27 Speaker 1

Different kind of powers and backgrounds and from different planets and they unite together to form the Legion section that we read the in the early 80s. I I still think you know that's that was the highlight that was the.

00:09:42 Speaker 1

Week of Legion Ness that, like the next five years between like 81 to 86 or 7 when it switched over to the deluxe format and all that, that was the peak legion of superhero stuff for me. Paul Levitz was on top of his game.

00:10:02 Speaker 1

He knew how to handle 30 plus characters and it seemed simple. Like he just moved them in and out like chess pieces.

00:10:11 Speaker 1

Is and each person had different plot going on at different times and you could tell his favorites, but you know he used as many characters as he could. Keith Giffin like this art for Keith Giffen, was my favorite. He wasn't too wonky, but it was still experimental a little bit this this group of Legionnaires.

00:10:32 Speaker 1

Probably my favorite. He highlighted a lot of the couples, you know, like Phantom Girl is dating Ultra Boy Monell and Shadowless and yes, they all have little last names and lads and.

00:10:46 Speaker 1

Kids and and stuff like that, which they later versions of the Legion tried to get out of, you know, like Lightning Lad became live wire and stuff like they take it for what it is, you know, like I was telling producer Tony, you know, our main heroes in the DC Universe are Batman and Superman.

00:11:06 Speaker 1

So you know, it's not too much of A stretch if you know invisible kid, it's still called invisible kid. What did you think about the art?

00:11:15 Speaker 2

It was all over the place and there's a couple things I had some question marks about, so I'm going to talk about the art first. The very first few issues in this run was Pat Brown.

00:11:26 Speaker 1

Yeah, early Pat Broderick, not Keith Gibson, I.

00:11:28 Speaker 2

Yeah. So how long did Pat Broderick do, prior to the point where I jumped on, which was she 284?

00:11:29 Speaker 1

Think they switched back and forth?

00:11:40 Speaker 1

Not very many, maybe one or two before that I would think.

00:11:43 Speaker 2

OK.

00:11:44 Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, they are stages.

00:11:44 Speaker 1

It was just kind of been involved in it.

00:11:48 Speaker 2

In people's careers that they either are just starting out or they don't have all their skills in place yet.

00:11:55 Speaker 2

And this feels like somebody who's just starting out, and they gave him a title that may or may not have been that successful. So they thought we'll just try you out on this title and see.

00:12:04 Speaker 2

How you do for a few issues.

00:12:07 Speaker 1

Right. Yeah. How would you like, hey, you're starting out. Let's give you a storyline that has at least 40 characters in it.

00:12:16 Speaker 2

You'll find something. Yeah. You'll find something in here. I mean, there are aspects where it's like I can see there was some progression even in those few issues. Is art got better because I think some of it had to do with the fact that he.

00:12:31 Speaker 2

Was like I gotta hit these, you know, deadlines and understanding that a little bit better and a little bit more confidence that comes in from having to do a couple of different issues here or there. And then.

00:12:42 Speaker 2

I didn't realize because.

00:12:43 Speaker 2

I'm reading these in like a big kind of trade format, so I guess they had like backup stories. Was that always the case?

00:12:51 Speaker 2

Allegion because several of these things have kind of a backup story because like Keith Giffen.

00:12:57 Speaker 2

The very first if.

00:12:58 Speaker 2

You had done one with that dream girl.

00:13:01 Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean traditionally had a backup story just for like a different tale that sometimes woven into it. Usually the writer would use it as to just highlight a character that necessarily had his own storyline that was going on and they wanted, you know, to emphasize it.

00:13:18 Speaker 1

And they had eight pages to do it or whatever. So to highlight those characters that didn't get enough action in in the original title.

00:13:25 Speaker 2

Or that that makes more sense cause I mean with it being the legion of superheroes you anticipated being the full legion and then these back up stories could be, like you said, the solo or highlight, you know, after those first couple of issues then it goes into Keith Giffen.

00:13:38 Speaker 2

There is still a lot of Keith Giffin stuff that is always in Keith Giffen's work, no matter what style he opted to go with.

00:13:49 Speaker 2

There's a tremendous amount of curby influence shortcuts that he would take and still did take even down to the some of his facial structures and some of these other things that are like, you know, he still draws like this. You know, a lot of shadows. One thing that did get a little distracting and I don't know if he was trying to say.

00:14:08 Speaker 2

Like helping out the colorist but.

00:14:12 Speaker 2

Towards the latter few issues, he draw these two lines kind of arbitrarily down, and they follow the contour of a person's face, and it was just something that I know he was trying to say. Like, OK, this is like.

00:14:24 Speaker 2

Either a shadow.

00:14:25 Speaker 2

Or a plane. So the colors would come.

00:14:27 Speaker 2

In and like put like a darker color on either side of these lines and that way the middle.

00:14:32 Speaker 2

It's highlighted or vice versa, that like there's a a shadow being cast in the face and there's, like slightly distracting. And that was in.

00:14:40 Speaker 2

The latter issues.

00:14:41 Speaker 2

In the version I have, there is a segment that kicks in with.

00:14:49 Speaker 2

We'll call it a later era.

00:14:51 Speaker 2

Keith Giffen, style and I don't know how did that work, but it was kind of like they jumped in in with like a story that took place in this time frame. And the backup story and they threw it in even though it.

00:15:05 Speaker 2

Had like a more.

00:15:07 Speaker 2

Recent Keith Giffen story.

00:15:09 Speaker 2

Art style. So.

00:15:11 Speaker 1

I think they gave him more power on that or whatever you're talking about when the.

00:15:16 Speaker 1

The shadow last descendant in the headquarters and Lightning Lad, cosmic Boy Saturn Girl, were the only ones left at the at the headquarters and had to fight that.

00:15:27 Speaker 1

That creature? Yeah.

00:15:29 Speaker 2

Where did that come into play? Cause I mean that obviously that cannot have been during this like you know, while he was drawing this.

00:15:36 Speaker 2

It's in his art style.

00:15:37 Speaker 2

It's really changes and changes.

00:15:38 Speaker 2

Right back for the rest. So that that's.

00:15:40 Speaker 2

Really a little bit because it was like that's the the art style. I kind of recommend recognized when he went more.

00:15:47 Speaker 2

Simple shapes boulder lines block your formatting and it's like wow. This is like when he was doing Doctor Fate. That Doctor Fate miniseries. This is like art from almost that era.

00:16:00 Speaker 1

Pretty sure that was. That was how it was originally. I'd have to go back to my original issues and see. I almost wanted to say that was like a few years later, Keith did an annual that kind of touched on the time back then. But I don't think this was taken from that.

00:16:16 Speaker 2

Because there's no real reference that I'm seeing that this story originally appeared in.

00:16:23 Speaker 2

It's like ohh.

00:16:24 Speaker 1

It didn't I.

00:16:24 Speaker 1

Think. Yeah, I.

00:16:25 Speaker 1

Think it was originally like his first trial doing that for the public and.

00:16:31 Speaker 1

Maybe they wanted to.

00:16:31 Speaker 1

See how people would react to his new?

00:16:34 Speaker 2

Art. Yeah, cause his later art was basically like, OK, people's faces are gonna be completely in shadow. I'm not gonna draw a human face if I don't have to. I.

00:16:44 Speaker 2

Wanna just?

00:16:45 Speaker 2

Put a big old black just bar across the like you'll see their forehead and that's all you'll see of this person style got really, I would say simplified but.

00:16:55 Speaker 2

It very different and like I think you know the heavier heavier lines.

00:17:01 Speaker 2

Use a different ink pen. Kind of a thing, a brush for everything, as opposed to anything tight detail. And then like also then went right back to the old style, I will say.

00:17:13 Speaker 2

You can deal with a.

00:17:14 Speaker 2

Group book There is tiny people can't imagine having to draw.

00:17:20 Speaker 2

The all these characters keep them, you know, distinct looks at such a tiny, tiny scale. Because, I mean that's, you know, that's kind of what he has to do when you're like, OK, on this panel I want.

00:17:34 Speaker 2

15 of the Legion.

00:17:35 Speaker 2

Members showing up. I'm going to jump a little.

00:17:38 Speaker 2

Bit off of the arc.

00:17:40 Speaker 2

What it is, but it will come back to being about the artist as a result, but that Paul Levitz dude was not afraid to use.

00:17:47 Speaker 2

Words and you.

00:17:48 Speaker 1

Well, it's the 80s.

00:17:50 Speaker 2

A lot of words, a lot, a lot of words.

00:17:55 Speaker 2

And so not only did you have to juggle tons of characters, tons of people on a single page, or a single panel.

00:18:03 Speaker 2

You also had to deal with paragraphs of copy and it's like man, and this is a Chris Claremont School of Exposition. Yeah, exposition. I I was gonna also. Now I'm gonna jump back again to the writing. One of the things that was interesting is that, you know, this is a story, you know, over several issues.

00:18:23 Speaker 2

In a build.

00:18:24 Speaker 2

On it, you know several of the issues that, like Pat Broderick and so forth. It's like, you know, a sense of something to come at a, you know, appearance of something bigger, brewing kind of heralding this thing about to happen. But there was now I did like that. But you also kind of forget that these things are.

00:18:44 Speaker 2

At one point, you know every month and he never knew when a new reader was going to jump in every issue. Everybody is called out by name, at least two or three times right in conversation.

00:18:56 Speaker 1

Yeah. One thing, Paul Levitz wanted you to do.

00:18:59 Speaker 1

Is be able to.

00:19:00 Speaker 1

Who identify him either by.

00:19:03 Speaker 1

Their regular name or their superhero name, and he did that several times just to get you be familiar with it because he kind of wanted to bring it personal like, why are they calling him Lightning lad? You know, if they know his name is Garth. So, you know, he kind of made it personal the same way Keith Giffen, who sadly passed away. And we talked about it last.

00:19:24 Speaker 1

Or two episodes ago tried to stylize each character a little different. He changed designs on costumes to make it.

00:19:31 Speaker 1

Them stand out a little more.

00:19:32 Speaker 1

Or he wasn't afraid to use technology ideas and just change it up and kind of unify it. Where before, like, lesion was kind of all over the place with different technologies and he would.

00:19:45 Speaker 1

He would, he would use his imagination to like you, said Kirby it up. But be consistent with it. So that came more of a unified, familiar universe. I think that was that was their real strength, at least as a, you know, 12 year old boy, as I was picking these up.

00:20:05 Speaker 1

I mean, you gotta. You gotta remember. Like you said, this came out monthly, so they had to repeat a lot of stuff.

00:20:12 Speaker 1

While telling a bigger tale and I thought the lead up was pretty good on this, there was, I mean, imagine, you know, all the covers nowadays spoiled the big surprise. But reading it when I was in 1982 and 80, you know, leading up to 83 reveal.

00:20:32 Speaker 1

Sorry about the spoiler here, but you know that it was dark side. You didn't know Dark side wasn't the big bad that he is now. He was.

00:20:42 Speaker 1

Hadn't been used for a while. There were hints, but in 1982 I probably only saw a dark side. One other time, you know. So when I was reading this and none of the covers, you know, had dark side coming, you know, and all that stuff. So that big reveal at the end of.

00:21:02 Speaker 1

You know, one of the issues where you know, I think it's dark side and you're like what so no way you know how.

00:21:09 Speaker 1

Did you get?

00:21:10 Speaker 1

So powerful and ohh of course you know.

00:21:12 Speaker 1

I look back, all the clues, you know, cloning and stuff, it was a big surprise. It was a big deal back.

00:21:14 Speaker 2

Yeah, the reveal.

00:21:19 Speaker 1

And not just for me, but for a lot of people. And it unfortunately, there's no way nowadays. You can't know that it's dark side, because even the cover on my deluxe edition has him on the cover.

00:21:33 Speaker 1

You know, so it's not going to be quite as surprising, but it it, you know, back then it was that was a big deal. That and the Judas contract for the new Teen Titans, you know, those are those who pinnacle storylines that just had a surprise and you didn't see it coming and they pulled.

00:21:51 Speaker 1

Stuff pre Internet. You know where no one had spoilers or anything like that. With that, I mean, that's part of my love for it is because I read it as it happened and I was surprised as it happened and there was no spoilers and I was along for the ride and it's a great.

00:22:12 Speaker 1

A great time to be a common.

00:22:14 Speaker 1

Collector with back then.

00:22:14 Speaker 2

Getting back to the art though, there are a few things. One you know, the Legion spaceships where they always based off of Star Trek? Or is that like later editions?

00:22:25 Speaker 1

Earlier edition, certainly they had that kind of.

00:22:28 Speaker 2

Saucer section and the tuna cells and a kind of a bridge, you know, not a bridge, but a, you know.

00:22:35 Speaker 1

Certainly influence, that's for sure.

00:22:37 Speaker 2

I did get a kick out of I think Keith Giffen secretly wanted to draw more Marvel characters and not as much. He's kind of getting tired of drawing all these DC Legion characters cause quote UN quote cameos are pretty ridiculous.

00:22:52 Speaker 1

Yeah, he liked shoving people in that didn't fit. Didn't belong there. Sorry, he's. I kicked my desk. But yeah, he said Spiderman. You know, he said a whole bunch of different characters in the background. That was kind of half the fun.

00:23:08 Speaker 1

Was scenery from.

00:23:09 Speaker 2

Yeah, little Easter eggs popping up because they I saw Thor and a couple little spots and some of the other ones, I won't say two other things that were of note and I kind of wonder how often this was done.

00:23:23 Speaker 2

The two page spread in the 8.

00:23:25 Speaker 2

These I don't really recall that happening really that often and there was 2 instances of it in this run, one which is one of my all time favorite things. Any time to see and that is a blueprint they kind of said. Here's what the leading power in here it looks like.

00:23:44 Speaker 1

Every couple of years, they'd show what the version that they're using now.

00:23:48 Speaker 1

And and they had just revamped all the technology. So they wanted to give you a new blueprint, yeah.

00:23:55 Speaker 2

Yeah, and explain it, but then even.

00:23:56 Speaker 1

I love I.

00:23:57 Speaker 1

Love those. I love those. As a kid, I would just read them and.

00:24:01 Speaker 1

They go.

00:24:01 Speaker 1

Oh, and imagine what the place looked like. You know, they used to do that with the Justice League satellite, you know, do a cross section of that. And I just ate that stuff up.

00:24:11 Speaker 2

It's pretty ridiculous. I mean, I mean it's it's actually like a legit. I don't know who they hired. You know, if it was Keith given himself doing it, I don't know. But I mean, that's like a legit like blueprint drawn out all those details and.

00:24:26 Speaker 2

Excruciating detail and thought into it all, and you're just like, wow, that's that's insane. And that was like a two page spread. You actually had to kind of go old school, turn it sideways to see the centerfold off this thing kind of splayed out, like, wow, check.

00:24:44 Speaker 2

It out. It's all blue right now.

00:24:46 Speaker 2

And then the other two page.

00:24:48 Speaker 2

Was during the whole climate climate.

00:24:51 Speaker 2

Battle with Darkside himself and obviously clearly paying homage to, you know, Michelangelo's creation of man moment in the Sistine Chapel is a little heavy-handed. I mean, I don't mind that. You know, the tip of the hat here, there. But I mean, this one is like.

00:25:11

You know you're.

00:25:11 Speaker 2

Comparing yourself, you know to that amazing, you know, masterpiece with this two page spread or what? But.

00:25:19 Speaker 2

It was still.

00:25:19 Speaker 2

Pretty Dang hilarious because I was like going wait a minute. Like.

00:25:23 Speaker 1

I only know of Keith Tiffins. I don't know what you're talking about at all. That's I thought any other copy was a copy of that Keith Giffen.

00:25:32 Speaker 2

Yeah, keep giving. Originate it. Michelangelo copied it.

00:25:36 Speaker 1

Right. I I that's that's how I thought it.

00:25:39 Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, he he did different art styles and Easter eggs, and he liked to play around with stuff. He certainly, you know, he had a sense of humor and.

00:25:51 Speaker 1

And everything but that that two page spread changed it up a little bit. This panel work I I liked. I think the coloring helped a lot.

00:26:00 Speaker 2

I will admit, yeah. Yeah, cause a lot of these costumes aren't really that defining. And some of the characters have similar hairstyles or some of that. If it were not for the coloring, you'd be you'd be hard.

00:26:14 Speaker 2

Pressed cause like sometimes, like if it were not for Brainiac 5 green skin, you could almost say is that lightning, lad, is that yeah.

00:26:24 Speaker 2

So absolutely have to have the coloration on there as well. Again, another confession. I've never read a legion of superheroes comic, so I'm not familiar with these characters beyond what you've, you know, kind of spelled out over the years. So the story picks up.

00:26:33 Speaker 1

You still have it right.

00:26:44 Speaker 2

With Timber Wolf getting a facelift.

00:26:48 Speaker 1

Well, Timber wolf is my favorite character of the legion, by the way. Prior to this his face was more beastial. He still was human.

00:26:58 Speaker 1

But he he had more of a.

00:27:01 Speaker 1

Not I don't want.

00:27:02 Speaker 1

To say scarred, but it was. It was.

00:27:05 Speaker 1

More feral and.

00:27:09 Speaker 1

I was surprised as you when I originally read it that he is getting the facelift but.

00:27:14 Speaker 1

I think they wanted him to differentiate between Wolverine a little bit and he wasn't so wild, so they made him a little more generic in the face was kind of lame until I noticed that Keith Giffin would change him back. Well, you know, like when he got really angry and stuff.

00:27:31 Speaker 1

His face would.

00:27:32 Speaker 1

Revert back, which I thought was a nice touch.

00:27:35 Speaker 1

And he wanted to do it for his girlfriend. Light less try to make it more, more human for her. And that's kind of where that story line went, each each character.

00:27:48 Speaker 1

You know for such a.

00:27:50 Speaker 1

Populated book they did have you know, individual storylines and stuff. Sometimes it was maybe a sentence or anything, but it throughout the series that they did, you know, you could see how it wove in and out and you know, certain characters changed their look to be a little different.

00:28:09 Speaker 1

You know, Star Boy finally grew a beard and he's like, you know, character that had a beard. And, you know, I think Keith did a good job of trying to get people to look a little bit.

00:28:21 Speaker 1

They introduced, you know, block and and some characters that weren't necessarily white humans, you know, and tried to to, you know, just generate a more sci-fi type atmosphere as time would go on, you know, they'd introduce more characters.

00:28:40 Speaker 1

Like that, you know, there's there's so many characters. I mean, they even through in the substitute legion and the wanderer, you know, they threw in everybody that they've ever encountered in the Legion for this great darkness saga. Even, you know, to fight the battles. And I I was.

00:29:00 Speaker 1

Concern that there's just so many people it would wash away anything about who these people were and and you know, you don't have to know who these guys are if you, if you've read other legion stories, clearly you're ahead of everybody else. You know, I don't think they're necessary. If you get the.

00:29:18 Speaker 1

Idea that every planet has a unique feature for their people.

00:29:24 Speaker 1

You know, like cosmic voice planet, a brawl. They are all. They're all magnetic, you know. And Saturn girls from Titan. They're all telepathic. It's it's kind of the same thing for through sci-fi land. You know, George Lucas's desert planet, the whole planets desert, you know, it's it's a whole other planet.

00:29:44 Speaker 1

It's kind of the same thing here where, you know, dream girl's from naltar and he and then they all, you know, have psychic for, you know.

00:29:54 Speaker 2

Pre cuteness and like some.

00:29:56 Speaker 1

You know, there's not that many characters that have non planets powers, you know like Ultra Boy and Timberwolves. They have individual powers that no one else has. I mean, in a way, alter boy has Superboy powers, but either generic for their land or very unique like wildfire.

00:30:17 Speaker 1

You know, so it there's not a lot of in between stuff. It's a lot of native powers. And then each planet.

00:30:24 Speaker 1

Kind of participates in this legion by donating a character you know, volunteer into the group. And I mean, usually they're the most, you know, they're one of the most powerful ones or or stuff like that so that they are heroes on their own planet.

00:30:31

MM.

00:30:42 Speaker 2

Yeah, I was kind of curious about, you know, some of them, like how many are Superman slash, Superboy derivative?

00:30:50 Speaker 1

Really just three. But there's, I mean, there's some with lesser extent. I mean you get Ultra Boy Monel and Superboy together.

00:30:57 Speaker 1

They're they're pretty much the same. And then Supergirl, of course. But you know, Timber Wolf is fast and strong, but he doesn't have any of the other Kryptonian kind of powers. If you look at powerhouses, groups of the universe, you could say the legion, probably.

00:31:18 Speaker 1

Has the strongest members, they they have Monel at his prime. They have Ultra Boy who can do all of Monel's powers, but just one at a time. Superboy, Supergirl, and then a variety of other abilities. But I mean that's, I mean part of.

00:31:36 Speaker 1

The great Darkness saga was watching dark side manipulate the whole planet that manilas from, and just having a, you know, a billion supermans destroying the universe. And I mean that was that was pretty cool to watch how one person could.

00:31:50 Speaker 2

Yeah, there they grow.

00:31:57 Speaker 1

Could wipe out the universe.

00:31:59 Speaker 1

Simply by controlling, you know the invulnerable group of heroes, how much devastation they could do to the whole universe. So, I mean, part of the storyline was here's all these superheroes, even they can't take on this many, you know, with the same powers. I'm always surprised more characters.

00:32:19 Speaker 1

Didn't die just because of the amount of bad guys around. But you know you can't. You can't kill off your favorite guys.

00:32:26 Speaker 2

Yeah, I was noticing that because there's several times this guy's dead. No, no, I'm fine. This guy's dead. Nope, he's dead. Nope.

00:32:36 Speaker 2

I was like, I was just.

00:32:37 Speaker 2

Curious and I was like, that's a little bit.

00:32:40 Speaker 2

Of a key and I.

00:32:41 Speaker 2

Mean there was obviously clearly a reference too, because you know, they have statues of Members that have been lost. You know, they had somebody like reflecto kid or whatever, you know, they had put up a statue saying like, yeah, we.

00:32:55 Speaker 2

Did lose somebody?

00:32:57 Speaker 1

Yeah. And they've lost. I mean out of any group that exists, I mean, they've probably lost the most members.

00:33:05 Speaker 1

In the superhero Kingdom, they probably, I don't know, probably five or six real deaths, at least in that old storyline. Yeah, they've if they've actually had deaths before ignoring karate kid who has died probably 3 or 4.

00:33:21 Speaker 1

Times because Keith Giffin hated karate kid and kept killing them off. And.

00:33:27 Speaker 1

Kind of a joke.

00:33:30 Speaker 1

But in this series, he didn't die. Later on he does. But they. Yeah, they certainly had a mortality rates in their universe, even dating back when.

00:33:41 Speaker 1

To triplicate girl becoming duo damsel because you know Computo killed one of her bodies, you know back in the 60s and that you know, that never came back. She was always just two bodies after that and.

00:33:56 Speaker 2

Girl became dull damsels.

00:33:58 Speaker 1

Right. So, you know, they try to add some.

00:34:03 Speaker 1

Interesting plots and twists and and things like that. I mean, it's a superhero comic, so you know, Jean Grey can return to life a million times, and most of the Legion can too.

00:34:16 Speaker 2

When you said the Wanderers is that who this?

00:34:19 Speaker 2

Dev M or whoever.

00:34:24 Speaker 1

It was in the wanderer, but he is a character that has showed up in the past and he's another Kryptonian who shows up later 30th century. I don't remember the original story. Later on he shows up and he's a spy.

00:34:39 Speaker 2

With one of the most ridiculous costumes I've seen.

00:34:43 Speaker 1

Yeah. And then you?

00:34:44 Speaker 1

Had duplicate boy who could duplicate anybody's powers. And of course he's usually duplicates the Kryptonian. Or you know you when you when you have superpowered level at that height you have to come up with bad guys or you know.

00:35:03 Speaker 1

People who can also fight on that level, so you have to create all these characters that are also that powerful to make it a story.

00:35:10 Speaker 2

You know, trying to sort all all that stuff because it was just so many people to keep track of and then to make matters and I'll I'll say I make matters worse.

00:35:23 Speaker 2

And I know from a.

00:35:25 Speaker 2

Perspective it it it's fine because it it simplified things, but you know it's.

00:35:30 Speaker 2

Like we cleaned up.

00:35:31 Speaker 2

These symbols, and I'm like going what's who's that symbol for? Meaning like instead of them writing out the person's name or taking a photo, or drawing the person's face or.

00:35:45 Speaker 2

It was just like, you know, here's a plus sign.

00:35:48 Speaker 2

That stood for this character.

00:35:50 Speaker 1

Here's the cloud.

00:35:52 Speaker 2

Yeah, that's dream girl cause it's got A Little Dream cloud in there and it's like.

00:35:56 Speaker 1

You knew who it was. It took a while.

00:36:00 Speaker 2

You know, and it really did help with the annual because I think at the very first page of the annual gave like a here's a CHEAT SHEET for those.

00:36:09

Who don't know.

00:36:10 Speaker 2

These characters so that when you do see these emblems.

00:36:14 Speaker 2

You know who that's referencing.

00:36:16 Speaker 1

Yeah, and that's and.

00:36:17 Speaker 1

The annual was where they got the new emblems. I mean, I think they used some before that, but this is where they really used it to try and show you, you know, the holes.

00:36:28 Speaker 1

Graphic Ness of their new headquarters. They played dungeons and Dragons.

00:36:35 Speaker 1

You know, with holograms, stuff like that. You know, he's trying to establish things that happen all the time. And so yeah, they throw that in like 4 or five times. They dungeon Dragons.

00:36:46 Speaker 1

Start their Dragons.

00:36:47 Speaker 1

Apparently in the 80s it was almost as popular.

00:36:50 Speaker 1

As it is now.

00:36:52 Speaker 2

It's never going to end. Hasbro is like going thank you very much. I'm glad to know that.

00:36:57 Speaker 2

You know, 1000 plus years, this game is still going to be going around and we're going to still make a ton of money.

00:37:03 Speaker 1

That annual was really where I went. Oh, this is really cool. And, you know, I hadn't read a computo story before that because it was before my time get introduced to the new Invisible kid. And I hadn't really known who.

00:37:18 Speaker 1

This kid was because he had died in.

00:37:20 Speaker 1

The 60s, you know all these.

00:37:21 Speaker 1

Stuff that you get hints at, that annual really connected with me for some reason? Sure. Why? Like if there's one book I tell people to read it, really it, you know, it highlighted different characters and it showed off couples. If you don't know the plot of the great darkness saga, it's world appears into.

00:37:42 Speaker 1

UP space and they investigated it might all get to beat up pretty good and they don't know whose world it is. And then they have other adventures. You know, they kind of get lost in some other things. And then these clones of these old time heroes.

00:37:58 Speaker 1

Those start attacking and stealing things and they take it back to their master and he absorbs it and he absorbs these huge enemies that the.

00:38:08 Speaker 1

Legion had fought.

00:38:09 Speaker 1

Before and like it was nothing you know. And he knew, like the powerhouse of this, this mysterious in shadow villain and eventually.

00:38:20 Speaker 1

Like we said earlier, he he controls the planet Daxam and just sends out all these Superman level heroes to change the landscape.

00:38:30 Speaker 1

Type of not only his planet, but of, you know, destroy and kill everything you can see, and it's just a a great battle. Twists and turns mostly coming around, focusing on who dark side eventually turned up to be, but a lot of characterization.

00:38:51 Speaker 1

That was there before, but they really took it to a new level with characters starting to date couples breaking up.

00:38:59 Speaker 1

You know this really it really a soap opera. While action was going on kind of thing, you know, a new Legion leader and Dream girl who was such a minor character prior to these kind of storylines. And really the the my only dislike is the trope of the little baby who grows up.

00:39:19 Speaker 1

Really fast and becomes pivotal towards the end of the story. I just.

00:39:25

Yeah, the shows are gone.

00:39:27 Speaker 1

Right. I just hate the the storyline where the baby grows at exceptional speed and and Oh my goodness, he's now. He's an adult or, you know, it's just I didn't. I didn't like it in Avengers 200, kind of weird rapey storyline with Miss Marvel and which we'll have to go over sometime, but.

00:39:47 Speaker 1

And this one I mean was a little better cool that Orion, you know, shows up.

00:39:53 Speaker 1

And high fathers. So there's some new God stuff in it, which we seem to tackle a lot of new God stuff without tackling a lot of new God stuff comes across in our storylines a lot even from the beginning of cosmic odyssey through our last conversation about Kirby and Dark side, suddenly in the legion of superheroes.

00:40:12 Speaker 2

I will say I can almost summarize this entire run in in two descriptors. One is a lot of sweating and a lot of crying. I was really surprised how soap opera this series is.

00:40:31 Speaker 2

And it.

00:40:31 Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, I would read General, I would watch General Hospital and then read it.

00:40:37 Speaker 2

And then try to find the distinct differences between the two.

00:40:40 Speaker 1

I gotta wash my soaps.

00:40:41 Speaker 2

Yeah, don't bother me with the stories around the good way that you know the legion wasn't like a lot of the the more readily available books that it was almost evenly distributed, you know, male to female ratio of characters. And most of them have been paired together.

00:41:01 Speaker 2

Some in some capacity and as a result, you know drama and see.

00:41:07 Speaker 2

News and a lot of these characters are related in some way, so it's kind of like, so this is one of those, like creepy moments that I realized that I shouldn't think about these shows too much in a roundabout way. In 90210, the twins Brenda and Brandon kind of like.

00:41:28 Speaker 2

Had some semblance of relationships together. If you think about who slept with who ultimately in their little.

00:41:35 Speaker 2

People like triangle that Brenda slept with Dylan Dylan slept with Kelly. Kelly, slept with Brandon and it's like, so when Brandon was sleeping with Kelly, who slept with Dylan, who slept with Brenda is like, that's kind of a little bit like, you know, it's their leftovers from somebody that really creepy. The more I got to thinking about it and the more I realized.

00:41:54 Speaker 2

This is any event.

00:41:56 Speaker 2

All that to say.

00:41:57 Speaker 1

Only in this podcast can someone connect 90210.

00:42:02 Speaker 1

That was super hero.

00:42:04 Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly.

00:42:06 Speaker 2

But I was like, that's my sister-in-law. That's my brother-in-law and it's like it's it's Chinatown.

00:42:13 Speaker 2

Baby, you know.

00:42:14 Speaker 2

It's just, yeah. And it's like, wow, there's so much. And then the drama of, like, I can't be a superhero anymore. And it's like we got to leave. It's got too much memories.

00:42:28 Speaker 2

Here I'm. I'm out. Are you with me or are you going to stay?

00:42:31 Speaker 3

It was.

00:42:31 Speaker 2

Just everything was like.

00:42:34 Speaker 2

Let's just go over the top with the drama on all the the interpersonal issues that these superheroes have, which you know, makes this a very different title than a lot of the titles at the time. You know, if this is your wheelhouse, and if this was something that was of interest, then I can see. Yeah, yeah, this would be a great.

00:42:54 Speaker 2

Book. But if you were more into, you know, I just want to see somebody punching another person in the face for 20 pages.

00:43:04 Speaker 2

This is probably not it.

00:43:05 Speaker 1

No, you have to be soapy. A lot of it was relationship oriented. Certainly in these issues. It was this group of books kind of paved way for Keith Gibbons. Five years later. I mean, way down the road, if you didn't, if you weren't invested in the relationships reading five years.

00:43:19

Right.

00:43:26 Speaker 1

You know, you were gonna kind of go. What? I'd have no clue why I even care. And looking back at this stuff, it it kind of paved the way for it kind of showed why you should care about some of these relationships and.

00:43:41 Speaker 1

How much background they have with each other?

00:43:45 Speaker 1

Kind of like, you know, early X-Men stuff was kind of dramatized again. The wordy, wordy writers had to dramatize a lot. Legion was no exception. Some of the early Teen Titan stuff was also like that, you know, teen drama.

00:44:01 Speaker 1

And these were teens in a sense that they were probably 20, something ish just out of their teens kind of thing, at least. At least the older original, you know, they were certainly not teenagers, even though, like, once in a while you'd go well, you know, that was just a couple of years ago that I lost my body.

00:44:22 Speaker 1

And turned to duo damsel and and in reality you know it was 22 years ago. It comics. You know, we've only been around for a few years and how is that possible, you know? Yeah, just the old. You know how how how is that possible that Batman has five different Robins in three years.

00:44:29 Speaker 2

Account sign.

00:44:42 Speaker 1

You know, kind of thing, but it's comic time.

00:44:45 Speaker 2

Kind of remember who's connected with whom.

00:44:48 Speaker 2

There was a a throw away.

00:44:49 Speaker 2

Line that kind of explained a lot to me, and it was early on. Yeah, we we can only have 25 members in the Legion and I was like, why is that for taxes? I was like, OK, that was kind of a joke, I guess. But at the same point, it's.

00:45:03 Speaker 2

But I got the thinking 25. No wonder.

00:45:06 Speaker 2

It's called the legion.

00:45:08

It's like.

00:45:09 Speaker 2

25 heroes in a what the?

00:45:12 Speaker 1

It's kind of like when Henry Guy Rich.

00:45:15 Speaker 1

You know said hey, there can only be 8 working Avengers. You know at one time so that we can control you better and stuff like that. I I don't remember why they kept it at 25, but it was probably the writer going please. It's probably the hardest going.

00:45:32 Speaker 1

I don't want to draw.

00:45:33 Speaker 1

More than that, you know, they got to do something.

00:45:35 Speaker 1

About it, I'm sure it was something silly so that they wouldn't have 100 members.

00:45:41 Speaker 2

Yeah, but I mean, they still kept above that quantity because there was, like you said, the substitute.

00:45:47 Speaker 2

Region and yeah. Yeah. So I mean they they went above beyond.

00:45:49 Speaker 1

Of reserve.

00:45:53 Speaker 2

But they were.

00:45:54 Speaker 2

Like, OK, these are core 25 these.

00:45:56 Speaker 3

Are the ones we.

00:45:57 Speaker 2

Can't get, can't. Can't get rid of. They kind of come and go, reservists or whatever, but.

00:46:02 Speaker 2

These are core 25.

00:46:04 Speaker 1

One thing Paul Levitz did pretty good was just kind of he came down to like his most favorite 12 and then everybody else would kind of rotate.

00:46:12 Speaker 1

In and out.

00:46:13 Speaker 1

But you know, you could tell who.

00:46:15 Speaker 1

Kind of focused on for a while and then it would shift a little bit and he'd tell a different storyline with different core members. You know, he tried to to spread it out a bit. What are you gonna do with 25 members? You're gonna you're gonna park some. Have some go on vacation, have some disappear for a couple of issues so you don't have to deal with.

00:46:36 Speaker 1

You know all 25 at the same time and then?

00:46:39 Speaker 1

When the big event comes, you know you call them all in and they fight.

00:46:42 Speaker 2

Like I said, have you never read these leagues? I did feel by the end of these 12 plus issues I did get a sense of who was who. You know what their intent was? Some of them, you know, just because, like, you kind of do broad strokes. I really like this person. And it made sense of the guy who.

00:47:01 Speaker 2

Can grow. Really.

00:47:03 Speaker 2

Is connected with the lady who can shrink really small and so some of it's like OK if I can, I can see that but.

00:47:11 Speaker 1

Well, even that that was a new relationship, like even when you talk about those two colossal boy and shrinking Violet, there's a storyline later that is hinted at here, where it just kind of goes. Whoa, that's a big twist. And it, you know, it's all carefully plotted out here. Paul levitt's.

00:47:31 Speaker 1

Sending stuff send issues down the road before you know something goes. Whoa. That's why this happened. Or that's why they suddenly got together.

00:47:41 Speaker 1

There. So there's some. There's more story to that than just simply, oh, I, you know, I can grow. You can shrink. We should get together, you know, want me to spoil?

00:47:52 Speaker 1

It for you.

00:47:53 Speaker 2

I'll probably not read it any further legion books.

00:47:54 Speaker 1

I can.

00:47:57 Speaker 1

Ohh, you're breaking my heart my breaking my heart.

00:47:59 Speaker 2

I'm sorry, sorry.

00:48:02 Speaker 1

Well, it turns out boys and girls that.

00:48:06 Speaker 1

Well, it isn't shrinking, Violet. During this time she has been replaced and is this is this? Well, basically the darlins of the Legion of superheroes are the scrolls and she is a Berlin spy and a big old twist. And then when you go back and read these kind of issues.

00:48:26 Speaker 1

Again, you go. Oh, OK, there's.

00:48:28 Speaker 1

A hint for that and hint.

00:48:29 Speaker 1

For that.

00:48:29 Speaker 2

That's cool.

00:48:30 Speaker 1

So in this kind of.

00:48:32 Speaker 2

Yeah. And I was trying to read these things in the context of them on a monthly basis, you know, like, OK, this is released, this gets released. OK, now this is the first thing you've ever read of the Legion. OK, you know, the next issue is the first issue you've ever read of the Legion. So trying to keep that in mind, you know, cause it's like, you know, I'm.

00:48:52 Speaker 2

Looking at like a A.

00:48:53 Speaker 2

A a splash page of one of these issues.

00:48:56 Speaker 3

I was like.

00:48:57 Speaker 2

Where is chameleon boy? He's not here, lightning lad. Yeah. And there's like, three people that are already called off.

00:49:05 Speaker 2

In the very first page, explain these characters fairly quickly. I didn't realize there's this whole subplot story that felt very throw away, but it did have consequences, but it felt like I don't know if that was just something to kind of do with the character without really having anything else to think.

00:49:26 Speaker 2

But there's a subplot where they get frustrated with people not doing anything, and that chameleon boy decides to just.

00:49:36 Speaker 2

Take off. I guess he got introduced to his real dad again. 90210 melodrama of like.

00:49:45 Speaker 2

Your dad with you all.

00:49:47 Speaker 1

And Archie Brand was the original was there when the original 3 Legionnaires saved his life. And that's how they get together. So, like, he's a character that's been around a while and they decided to make him.

00:50:02 Speaker 1

Darlin, who couldn't control his power anymore, who's kind of trapped in the old white buggy, man, man. And yeah, he actually is. Chameleon boys, father.

00:50:16 Speaker 2

Yeah. So that's when I was like, OK, and then he gets mad and then decides to go on this, like suicide mission.

00:50:24 Speaker 2

And just causes more and more problems and it's like this dude is a whiny brat.

00:50:30 Speaker 1

And almost as whiny as lightning lead.

00:50:32 Speaker 2

And that was that was the other subplot that was like, boy, this is going on way too long and I know it wasn't that important, but.

00:50:43 Speaker 2

It took almost all twelve of these issues.

00:50:46 Speaker 2

And every single one of them had some reference to who's the leader around here and let's vote on it. And I'm throwing my head into the ring to become the leader and let's vote on that. And it's just like, oh, my.

00:51:02 Speaker 2

Gosh, that big of a deal to be.

00:51:04 Speaker 2

A leader. And then when they are.

00:51:05 Speaker 3

Our leader it's like.

00:51:07 Speaker 3

I should never have been leader. This is too much and I've cost too much. I make too many bad I and then the next person that becomes leaders. Ohh I.

00:51:15 Speaker 2

Should never have been.

00:51:16 Speaker 2

Better you know, I'm deputy leader and I don't want to be deputy leader. This is not for me and it's just like, ohh yeah. Again more layers. So it's like you have relationships, you've got political, you've got reference to like, you know, my mom is the president of the world. And you know, there's that level of politics and then planetary.

00:51:37 Speaker 2

Strife. And how does this planet work when everything is in medieval times? And yeah, like I?

00:51:46 Speaker 2

Said it's a lot, it's.

00:51:47 Speaker 2

A lot to try to.

00:51:49 Speaker 2

Digest and I can understand like you know, if you've never read a comic book before.

00:51:54 Speaker 2

And you're given any one of these issues?

00:51:58 Speaker 2

Would you want to get another one? And it's like, man, there is. There's so much packed in here that, like you said, you know, the payoff takes months to really.

00:52:11 Speaker 2

You know, get into it. Like I said, I've read these 12 and I finally felt like, OK, I know who these characters are. And I.

00:52:17 Speaker 2

Know kind of what?

00:52:19 Speaker 2

Some of their.

00:52:19 Speaker 2

Struggles are, and I can you know without.

00:52:23 Speaker 2

OK, that's that character. Even though like 1 issue, he doesn't have a beard and the next issue he.

00:52:28 Speaker 2

Does and trying to sort out like OK so this?

00:52:32 Speaker 2

Is the one.

00:52:32 Speaker 2

Who's got that power? That's right. That's.

00:52:34 Speaker 2

Right. She can. She can see the future, but there's not, like somebody who's got the charisma to.

00:52:40 Speaker 2

You know, make people bend to her will.

00:52:43 Speaker 2

Or anything like.

00:52:43 Speaker 2

That I kept thinking that's what her power was and.

00:52:47 Speaker 2

Light lass and lightning boy or like they're.

00:52:53 Speaker 2

Lightning lad. Sorry. He's got electrical powers and but she's got like.

00:53:00 Speaker 2

Gravity powers or something?

00:53:02 Speaker 1

Yeah. And they're brother. And they're twins, but she originally.

00:53:07 Speaker 1

Had lightning powers, but because back then you couldn't have the same duplicate power as another legionnaire.

00:53:15 Speaker 1

Like you can't have two lightning people. I mean, you can now back in the 60s, they thought that would be a fun rule. Dream Girl actually changed her DNA to have different powers, so eventually she does get lighting powers back and loses her gravity powers.

00:53:33 Speaker 1

So she becomes lightning last, actually turns out to be a pretty cool character. But I mean, if there's a power, I would want least, it's probably hers.

00:53:42 Speaker 2

Boy, I can carry a lot of boxes, a lot of boxes. I'll just make them very lightweight. Is in this series like for several issues before it gets into the whole dark side. Obviously they start, you know, kind of hinting at things with just.

00:53:55 Speaker 2

Like these little?

00:53:56 Speaker 2

Preludes and these little like, something's happening.

00:54:00 Speaker 2

You know, heading towards the thing.

00:54:02 Speaker 2

But there is like this whole.

00:54:03 Speaker 2

Cund. Is that how you pronounce it this whole empire?

00:54:07 Speaker 1

Don't don't mispronounce that.

00:54:09 Speaker 2

I know that's what I was trying to.

00:54:16 Speaker 1

And Keith Giffen uses the guns later in, you know, Justice League International, he'll do some stuff with durland. You know, he he uses the races of the Legion and goes back 1000 years and uses it in his Justice League stuff he tries.

00:54:31 Speaker 1

To use it consistently, to make it, you know, certain species are just just, you know, like, you know, Romulans and the Vulcan, you know, just kind of having consistency throughout the mythos and stuff like that. But Cons, which is a warlike race.

00:54:47 Speaker 2

Yeah, kind of like Klingon.

00:54:49 Speaker 1

They fight each other, and that wasn't the first time they were used. They were they were used prior like they had. They had a couple Earth wars show up once in a while and become important again and then fade away in the background.

00:55:03 Speaker 1

Like the Dominators, and you know, all these that originated in the 30th century would come back and be used in the 20th.

00:55:11 Speaker 2

Here's a question in the writing, and I'm gonna ask this on your end. They they talk about this whole like, you know, all these people come from all these different planets and they're all able to speak without, like any issues. They understand each other. Not a problem, you know? And even like, when they do land on that hostile planet, there's not, like, a real like.

00:55:31 Speaker 2

Translator issue. It's just.

00:55:34 Speaker 2

Yep, we got it. Yeah, we understand each other. You speak in a language I understand and I speak in a language you understand? No dialect, no nothing but the new invisible kid comes around. Everything he says has kind of a French accent.

00:55:51 Speaker 2

And it's like, what? So every planet out there speaks apparently English amazingly well, except for one person. And that's the only person in this entire.

00:56:04 Speaker 2

Look outside of that block of the rock, dude.

00:56:07 Speaker 2

He at least.

00:56:08 Speaker 2

Has a different font for his speech bubbles of all their travels and all the intergalactic races that they meet up with. There's only one dude with a French accent.

00:56:18 Speaker 1

OK. Well, let me let me tell you here what the Paul Levitts and previous writers, they.

00:56:26 Speaker 1

Created a language called Interlac and they actually have an alphabet on it and you can decipher things in the background issues around this time and later so everybody speaks inner lack and those that don't you see premix fives, genius and he has telepathic earplugs that can change the language.

00:56:46 Speaker 1

So you understand it, language never is really a problem. Sometimes it is when it storyline lets it be so, but other than that, Jacques Folkart Invisible Kid 2 is.

00:57:00 Speaker 1

From earth. So he has a French accent. That's why I don't know.

00:57:05 Speaker 1

He just does. He just does. You know, he's he's the gambit of the group.

00:57:16 Speaker 1

That's right.

00:57:19 Speaker 1

That's. That's it. No explanation needed after that.

00:57:23 Speaker 1

They just can't do you know, it's how they survive in space. They have these trans suits that automatically happen. They have flight rings. They used to have jet packs and.

00:57:32 Speaker 1

You know, science has brought it to a flight ring where you can do wonderful things.

00:57:39 Speaker 2

So yeah, because that leads to. The other part was a slight ring. Everybody's got one, right? I mean, that's like handed out. That's how like that alter boy can fly all the time, even though, you know, use one of Superman.

00:57:40 Speaker 1

It's just science.

00:57:47 Speaker 1

With all the legion.

00:57:52 Speaker 2

'S powers at a time.

00:57:53 Speaker 1

And block actually has three to lift him up.

00:57:55 Speaker 2

Oh, well, OK, that makes sense. I think I remember reading something about that in one.

00:58:00 Speaker 2

Of the you know issues here.

00:58:02 Speaker 2

But with that said, I was trying to sort out. There's a a woman who uses the flight ring in ways that's never been done before, and it's all based off the will. I'm going are these flight rings like unused Green Lantern rings? What's up with these things?

00:58:19 Speaker 1

They're based on the will of the where. I mean, that's probably as similar as it gets to a Green Lantern ring. It's just a will that you can fly, but dream girl does kind of use it because they really wanted to show her to be really, really smart and not just good looking. So they.

00:58:40 Speaker 1

Made her.

00:58:40 Speaker 1

Or kind of devise different ways to use things. And she did. I mean, she created a formula to get lightning lass's powers to light last, you know? So she's smart, she's smart. But I think they're just kind of trying to highlight her right before she became leader, that she's not just the.

00:59:00 Speaker 1

Some blonde or whatever background on her, you know? And this is it's legion Legion tradition that every year or to vote for a new leader. And it used to be that the readers got to vote.

00:59:18 Speaker 1

And send in their votes and whoever they picked, if it was possible with their storylines, became the leader. So I mean, like the audience got to pick who was gonna lead the legion in the next year or two. And so it was kind of a cool thing. It was before the Internet. So you'd have to actually mail it in.

00:59:36 Speaker 2

Wow, that's a great way to engage.

00:59:39 Speaker 1

Right. And I do remember early AOL days they I think they did it once through the AOL America online. You was I think they did it once or twice, but through the.

00:59:48 Speaker 2

You've got mail.

00:59:52 Speaker 1

To that, I did participate in, but so I mean, yeah, they get you to choose your favorite legion air that you wanted to lead and so you'd get dream girl who didn't have a big part in the last, you know, three years, four years and suddenly.

01:00:12 Speaker 1

You know, she has to be prominent and lead. So they, you know, they gotta build up to that storyline. So it was a good gimmick. I don't know any other group.

01:00:21 Speaker 2

That did that and I don't know if this is a goof up, but this is just one.

01:00:24 Speaker 2

Of those things.

01:00:25 Speaker 2

Where whenever you're doing a mystery title or something, you want to reveal over, you know.

01:00:32 Speaker 2

There's a issues and you always want to kind of put the the main villain in.

01:00:37 Speaker 2

The background or.

01:00:38 Speaker 2

Hidden or in shadows. So you never really fully reveal there is a singular panel and I know for reader. You know listeners of this podcast. This is not going to help at all.

01:00:50 Speaker 2

But there is a.

01:00:51 Speaker 2

Singular panel where it looks as if Keith.

01:00:53 Speaker 2

Diffin was given like, OK, I want you to draw the main villain surrounded by his henchman, put him in shadow and he didn't.

01:01:01 Speaker 2

And so that when later on, that main villain is shown as.

01:01:05 Speaker 2

Dark side. This panel makes no sense and it's a scene where they they took the the magic wand from the Doctor Strange analog and then they just stole the Excalibur and then it's like OK, I got two of these things. Paul Levitz probably gave writing cues to Keith.

01:01:25 Speaker 2

If him, but I don't know if he gave Keith Giffen like.

01:01:27 Speaker 2

Enough notes to say this is dark side, but I want you to really make it look like you know you can't tell it's dark side, but the guys got the thigh high boots on but the costume and he's got white skin and it's like who is this character? And then when it later is revealed that it's dark side, it's like then who's this guy?

01:01:48 Speaker 2

So I don't know, do you have an explanation for that frame?

01:01:50 Speaker 1

In the deluxe edition which I have, they have a script that Paul Levitz wrote for.

01:01:56 Speaker 1

Yeah, and it was pretty generalized. It was, you know, here's what happens. But it wasn't by panel. It was pretty much subject for interpretation. So I'm guessing there was some of that do this, but not enough information to go. OK, but keep them in shadow or even if it did, I think there was just.

01:02:17 Speaker 1

Enough lack of information that it didn't get fully designed correctly. They did do a throwaway line that said, you know, my clothes will burn away and my true form will reveal their, you know, they they threw one line in there where there's clothes burn away.

01:02:34 Speaker 1

And he explains it. You know that it's time to to be me, Canada so.

01:02:39 Speaker 2

Yeah, because this dude is clearly Caucasian, like dark side came from Europe and I do like the fact that I know this is going to be a callback almost all the way back to the very first episode Thanagar is referenced.

01:02:44 Speaker 1

You're a white guy.

01:02:58 Speaker 2

Couple of times and the planet of the Hawk man in the several thousands of years between now and Legion of superheroes.

01:03:08 Speaker 2

They still have not decided that their outfits need an update.

01:03:12 Speaker 1

That's true. They didn't. They didn't get new outfits.

01:03:15 Speaker 2

No, no updates, just that little.

01:03:16 Speaker 1

So we've updated outfit.

01:03:19 Speaker 2

Strap of cloth making that extra cross your chest and some pain.

01:03:23 Speaker 1

And this series of books they I think it's the introduction of Oliver Queen's descendant doing the travel log driving around.

01:03:33 Speaker 1

Showing tourists the Legion of superheroes. It was queen something even that throwaway character shows up about five years. Four years later, during a murder mystery. And, you know, just throw away characters like that. And yeah, showing Thanagar, you know, they kind of want you to.

01:03:53 Speaker 1

Place it in the DC universe so they got to throw in some things. Sometimes just to remind you that this is the future.

01:04:00 Speaker 1

Especially when there's no Superboy or Supergirl around, and even before this series, Supergirl hadn't been around for a long time, so that was a big shock. But Superboy comes and goes depending on decade he's he's allowed to use or not now. Martian Manhunter even makes it makes a show.

01:04:19 Speaker 1

Later on and is known to exist in this universe still alive as the Martian man hunter.

01:04:25 Speaker 1

So they they do.

01:04:26 Speaker 1

They do some things that are kind of cool and.

01:04:30 Speaker 1

A tribute to.

01:04:31 Speaker 1

To 20th century heroes mostly try to keep to themselves as much as possible, especially after burn. Revamped Superman and one of the mandates was he can't be tied to the Legion of Superheroes anymore. And you're like, like what? How is that even possible? He formed.

01:04:51 Speaker 1

The group I mean, he didn't form it. But you know, they came back. That's he. They were introduced in his title as the Legion of Superheroes. You know, it's like he's mixed into their history pretty solid. They did this whole thing with an alternate world. And, you know, it's Pocket universe and.

01:05:10 Speaker 1

If they had just left it at that, it probably would have made enough sense to keep going like that. But then they had to do a whole bunch of other things that made it super impossible to continue with Superboy and it just became a mess after a while and they shouldn't have touched.

01:05:28 Speaker 1

It at all.

01:05:30 Speaker 1

That I don't know. The Legion of Superheroes is such a love hate for me because I love this era and this version, and there have been other versions that are OK, certainly not the Bendis version, but there been other versions tolerated the what they call the Archie Legion, which was our total reboot.

01:05:50 Speaker 1

Code names and some different storylines, that was, you know, it lasted probably.

01:05:56 Speaker 1

Probably 10 years in itself, it was pretty good. You know, it was tolerable. They had different characters, Princess projector. It was a snake walking, you know, a giant snake, you know? So they they took liberties and kind of updated. Even if they went back to that one, I'd be OK with it. I don't think they need to generate.

01:06:16 Speaker 1

A new legion every five years, though. I just. I'm old. I want my legion that I grew up with, but I would settle for a legion that was kind of resembled that and not something that was totally pointless.

01:06:29 Speaker 1

And see. I'm starting to ramble now.

01:06:33 Speaker 1

I'll leave it.

01:06:35 Speaker 1

Uh, the great darkness saga. I. You know, I wanted to.

01:06:37 Speaker 1

Ask you a.

01:06:38 Speaker 1

Couple of questions about it. You've been asking me that, you know to explain stuff. I I want to know after reading this. Who's your favorite legionnaire?

01:06:39

Ohh yeah.

01:06:47 Speaker 2

Yikes. Honestly, they all kind of like I couldn't tell you.

01:06:52 Speaker 1

Don't say they all look like.

01:06:53 Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, I mean.

01:06:55 Speaker 2

And it's like, I mean, they were treated so evenly, none of them really stood out as the breakaway character. None of them. I felt like, Oh my gosh, that's a brilliant character. Or that's an interesting play on it. And the ones that I thought I would really like. So I thought I'd like wildfire.

01:07:12 Speaker 2

But he's kind of a jerk.

01:07:15 Speaker 2

And then I thought, well, the element lab could be kind of cool, but then he's kind of whiny and the the chameleon boy was like ohh, he did something really stupid and got him as a traitor and.

01:07:27 Speaker 2

Think man now. But then he's just Superman.

01:07:30 Speaker 1

Yeah, but he's Superman with a girl.

01:07:32

Yeah, yeah.

01:07:35 Speaker 2

Boy and they would not let you forget it. Hey, love. Hey, sweetie. Love. How's it going? Love shady love shade.

01:07:43 Speaker 2

Yeah, I was just like, oh gosh, every.

01:07:46 Speaker 2

2 seconds. It's like man, this is a hallmark movie. And I kind of like the Ultra boy there. I could.

01:07:52 Speaker 2

Not tell you if there was.

01:07:53 Speaker 2

A favorite? There's just so many, and I'd have to read another like dozen issues.

01:07:58 Speaker 2

Kind of get down to a point. I could tell you who I didn't like, but say, here's my favorite. I would have to say that Chameleon boy and I couldn't.

01:08:03 Speaker 1

OK, who is your least favorite?

01:08:08 Speaker 2

Figure out like.

01:08:09 Speaker 2

You know some of these other characters, but the one that just had the the most dramatic and like kind of whiny outrage and jeopardized was like, yeah, we're gonna go to the home.

01:08:18 Speaker 2

I mean.

01:08:19 Speaker 2

They'd be like, you know, it's like I didn't get what I want for my birthday. I'm gonna invade Russia and like what? And then I'm gonna bring all my friends. We're all just gonna go invade Russia, cause they're going to. And I couldn't say that matter Eater lad, cause apparently he just was in a sanatorium.

01:08:35 Speaker 1

Previous storyline where he ate this super powerful like he ate the Infinity Gauntlet. Basically it wasn't, it wasn't called the Infinity Gauntlet, but it was, you know, the same power level to defeat.

01:08:47 Speaker 1

And so it drove him crazy. And.

01:08:50 Speaker 2

I was like when.

01:08:51 Speaker 2

They use someone who's a dumb character and they find an amazing way to use them. I mean, you know, Alan Moore was always fantastic at finding, like, well, that was kind of a throw away character. But, you know, under the right authorship, they really helped steal that character in a great.

01:09:05 Speaker 1

Way if you've got.

01:09:08 Speaker 1

My favorite character of the Legion of Superhero.

01:09:10 Speaker 1

Those you can write us at, and This is why I love comics@gmail.com.

01:09:16 Speaker 1

Our web page is and This is why I love comicspodcast.buzzsprout.com. You can join us on the ex formerly Twitter at and This is why I one we're on the Facebook and This is why I Love Comics podcast.

01:09:30 Speaker 1

Eventually we'll be on the TikTok again, but I'm not planning on it at the very moment you can become a Patreon member for only $5, you can get a bunch of extra audio stuff and eventual other prizes.

01:09:46 Speaker 1

Ramblings drawings you could get.

01:09:50 Speaker 2

Some of them, they're funny pictures.

01:09:53 Speaker 1

Some special stuff. First dibs on some merchandise, of course. If you get more than five, we are very thankful, but five is all you need.

01:10:02 Speaker 2

Gets you in the door.

01:10:03 Speaker 1

To get all the good stuff can also support the show on bus route, but we'd rather you become a Patreon member because you get cool stuff thanks to all our supporters and friends of the show can do without you. Thanks to producer Tony co-host Matt 2.0.

01:10:20 Speaker 1

Ohh, Kevin, Jamie and Matt 10.0 as always thanks to Thunder chicken for the tunes, go check them out on Spotify. There's a link in the show notes and give them some love just like we do. We give them love every time. Some love and just some Thunder love and.

01:10:34

That we do.

01:10:38 Speaker 2

A Thunder loving. Why can't you?

01:11:24 Speaker 2

Stop those raging hormones.